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Slave, Saddam Hussein, Sgt. Yates, Randy, Mr. Some larger, more capable herbivores as well. They're more capable than the comon thug -- Elite Thugs. These guys are like the PL 4s, but just a notch higher, to showcase higher levels of skill. Often using stronger equipment, or are just plain better in combat.
Super-humans in this range are VERY weak- generally total jokes, X-Men trainees with a fight or two under their belts, or just Morlocks with no combat training who can annoy Power Pack or somebody. The New Mutants debuted in this form. Joe B. Mindbender, Dr. People like the named cops in Batman, or much stronger animals are good here.
I'd imagine unprepared civilians just gaining their superpowers like in a super-hero's origin story might be here as well, being tremendously powerful but with little accuracy. Heroes who are so inexperienced they're barely able to beat thugs should end up here, such as the New Mutants were shortly after their debut. Compare that to nowadays, when even Junior X-Men are elite enough to be goonsweepers- that entire team had to work to take out three guys sometimes! The only other times I've used this PL is with weak-ass joke characters. He's a PL 7. Hammer Bros. Many animals here rule through sheer size -- Rather unusual to see this one, as it's the crossroads between the weaker NPCs, and the powerful PC heroes.
I typically just use this one for the more deadly animals or Summoned Minions or something. Badvibes, Ms. Max, Axel Hawk, R. Midnight, Tiger, Winged Victory, Mr. One of my more common PLs to use, actually, since I stat up so many scrubs. They have middling aim, often comparatively little power, and are often way under-pointed. But by joining ten-man teams, these scrubs can actually be a challenge. Or a laugh, if you're so willing. Also, it's ideal for large animals, as many of them are perfect Sidekicks to PL 10 heroes, and many of them can be trained to be deadly fighters.
Large predators, and fantasy versions of mundane beasts fit in here -- For the most part, though, if you see a PL 8 anything, it's a scrub character, rookie hero, or joke villain. Sometimes like in Mr. Mid-Nite's cases it's just a guy who's more of a thinker than a fighter. This goes for a lot of Batman's enemies, most of whom aren't physical threats for him, but are still OK fighters. Two-Face for example could brawl with Batman for a bit, but ultimately, that fight's only going one way.
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Blade, Ramses, Raven, R. People have noticed that I often "Low-ball" characters, turning the generic PL 10 build into something for more seasoned pros and veterans, leaving the rest for lower PL 9 status. That's quite deliberate. It keeps everything easily within reasonable PL limits if PL 10 is actually a fairly high target to aim for. Plus, it means alot of "Bare-Fisted" character archetypes who don't have gigantic Attack Bonuses can still play the game against a lot of villains.
If the answer is "pretty much never", then he should be PL 9. This is why someone like Tigra, who was a professional Avenger for years, is still basically a scrub in the grand scheme of things, because I don't see her taking out Iceman or Colossus any day soon. To match a full PL 10 , you've actually got to spend a rather large amount of points, and since I hold PL 10s to a higher standard than some, not as many people end up here. But I don't think that everyone has to be a seasoned pro, or even cost the full points more on that later. Needless to say, though, if you've been an X-Man or an Avenger for years, this is likely where you deserve to go.
Generally, anyone who can tangle with The Thing or Colossus for a several rounds ends up here, as well as the main heroes of any book that's been around for years and years Avengers, X-Men, Teen Titans, The Legion of Super-Heroes etc. This has the side-effect of guys passed off as "Street Level" in the comics actually having really good PL 10 quality- like Daredevil and most of his world's characters Bullseye, Elektra, etc.
It's a bit higher as a trade-off, and lesser guys fall into the PL 9 range and are more inaccurate whereas The Thing, hallmark of that type of character, is actually more accurate and not PL 10 at all. Vertigo of the Marauders is a good example- she can mess up an entire team with her power, but one good hit, and she's done.
Others are many members of The Technet- weak-ass, unskilled goons for the most part, but nearly all of them have powerful hypnotic or transformational effects that are near-game-breaking in intensity. Light, Warhawk, Aquagirl, Wildcat, Mr. Fate The Strausses, Kent V.
Trunks, Cell Vegeta, F. Trunks, Cell Jr. Doom, Magneto, Dr. Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Apr 03, am, edited 19 times in total. Now, there's some stuff I haven't done, like play-test much or even play a full game, so this is all entirely from a "character building" perspective, as well as a general book review. The Book's Layout: Okay in some parts, but brutal mistakes in others.
That is literally the only way to extrapolate that!
It also creates far less of a "log jam" at the mid-tiers of Strength- back in teh day, Spidey could be only BARELY stronger than Captain America, and nearly every mutant character with mild superhuman strength would be either ST 24 or 26, which is only a notch below Spidey or Rogue. So that's a good change. Intelligence is fine, as is Awareness The name changes take some time to get used to. Then there's some newer stuff. I actually REALLY like this move, as some guys pretty much never use range, and what was once a points-cheat going Attack Focus- Melee 10 is now a decent decision no one should take issue with.
Presence is kinda worse- well, it blows and no one really "needs" it. Charisma was always the weak link of the last edition anyways, but THIS just puts the bullet right in it's forehead, so to speak. Skills: Okay, this is the most controversial part of the game for many, including me. It wouldn't be such an issue if ALL the Skills were combined together, but they weren't.
Some of those I can see, especially with the way some people absolutely SPAM out maximum ranks in things like Intimidate to be unstoppable and frighten away people to game-breaking levels. Part of it's nice, so I'm not entirely negative about this. A lot of players like to kibbitz over tiny granularities like being slightly better at Gathering Info than Searching, but I figure "F it"- I like the fact that some skills cover more ground. MUCH better. I especially consider this handy, because with the new obscene cost of many Skills, I feel less bad about throwing "Expertise Spy " on somebody, and ignoring some other skills in favor of "They're a spy, so they know this anyways".
Johnny Storm has "Vehicles", but at half-cost because he's a race car driver and not a spaceship pilot the opposite is true of The Thing. Ooh, and "Survival" is now missing, but I put that under Expertise now anyways. Green Ronin doesn't like it? Fantastic, but nobody feels comfortable with a PL 14 Mister Fantastic, so he gets scaled back. I'm really fine with this as well, as it makes Featmonkeys a bit less expensive, and it's not like you can't just houserule half of those back in anyways.
Half the Feats they took out I never even used. Powers: Hm, some stuff is better, some worse. I like how Growth is made now, though they completely buggered up making it worth points at some levels, in addition to making the next Size Level a weird point- 12 feet? This effectively means that Horses are the same category of size as humans.
And of course Affliction is wonderful- I don't see how anyone could be too upset by a power that merged all those other ones together and made it much neater. Some stuff is missing, though. There's also no direct Probability Control since that's always a Marvel power, and pretty rare besides. I can't think of anything else important that's missing, so we're good there. The section does need some expanding in a later edition, however. I'd like to see the old Extras placed onto every "how to build" power like the old days, but that's a space issue on a book that also includes all the Rules.
I just use the term "Feats" in my Builds, and GR can stuff it. That was dumb. Super-Strength is way different, now costing basically 1 point per rank, and being unecessary anyways, as you scarcely have to buy ANY of it to make some guys as tough as they are. So they get WAY cheaper. Fine, I can dig it. What were they thinking with that one? Sure, you COULD build Teleport up to reach those distances, but as I found out when looking at the math, you'd need about ranks to hit the distances some people can reach!
Hm, what else? Oh yeah, the Area stuff is different- you've gotta buy the standard Extra with foot range mostly , and it's another EXTRA to double that to 60 feet, not just a Feat like the old days. Looking at my Tournament of Suck, which featured a few guys with Area Attacks blowing the CRAP out of huge sections of the field made me realize how truly dangerous those could be.
So I whole-heartedly agree that increased size should cost twice as much, instead of a single point. It might "Mark-up" some guys like Silver Surfer and Nova Prime, who set of spaceship-breaking Explosions, but what the hey? No one was playing them to scrimp on points. Good move. Of course, I'd just prefer it to be 2 points per rank.
I have NO IDEA why they made the imbecilic choice they did other than to give people a 'break' on that last point rounding down. Plus, Powerhouses have gotten a lot cheaper in general, so it fits into their builds without breaking them. Defenses: OK, so "Reflex" is now kinda "Dodge", and also fits a Ranged Defense thing, meaning that Parry is now based off of Fighting, and that's your defense. I also LOVE this distinction, despite how some don't.
Read any Spidey book and you'll see 20 thugs miss him with their automatic weapons, but even an oaf like Sandman or Rhino can tag him in melee once in a while. Hell, Dr. Octopus pratically beats the daylights out of him every time with ease because of this. But Electro? Guy can't BUY a hit. It's also really handy for my beloved Animal Builds, which allows you to show why animals are so prone to hunters- they have very low Dodge, but really high Parry. I'm fine with this I'm sure some players loved to game-break by buying up both- though really, this is the kind of game where Game-Breaking is so easy I'm surprised they bothered , though it proves problematic for lower-level characters or animals, which can easily go over the limits if you're not paying attention.
This causes raised eyebrows when I see a point official Catwoman build, but it just seems like they want starting PCs to be worse. It really does. I don't This one really tears me up just in terms of being "yea" or "nay" for it. Back in the 2e days, people would have laughed a point Catwoman Build down You're building that character like THAT? But nowadays? It's just hard to get used to.
I especially don't like it when I try to make a starting PC character like an X-Man or something and just CAN'T do it without shattering what makes the character who they are. Kinda just something I'm dealing with. Some old problems still exist. Swords and stuff generally do less damage because of how Strength got shrunk back, which is great.
But their GUN builds are still a mess! Pamela Isley has frequent strokes over this issue amongst other things on her thread, but I can empathize. This is D-U-M-B. I can understand that they don't want huge gangs of Thugs be super-dangerous to PL 10 heroes, but someone at PL has literally nothing to fear from Guns. Oh, and the Vehicle builds didn't get scaled up to the current Speed power.
The Batmobile drives at mph at-best. This is retarded. Someone should have caught that. What else is left? Oh yeah, the: Official Character Builds: They seem fine. I hate overly-powerful characters- I hate reading them, I hate what they do to lesser-powered guys, and I hate how they mess with realism or just common sense Guys can blow up starships one minute, but have trouble with Hawkeye the next?
Mister Hyde at Class 50 at best, can deck it out with The Thing, who can lift 12, tons in some people's eyes? Though PL 15 Superman is fine, especially with his current power upgrades. That's okay. Some stuff was oddly done. Why does Aquaman have Summon? Did Steve Kenson read what that power was?
Rules as Written states that a shark just appears next to him. I would have just used Animal Control. I mean, really, that makes more sense. Sure, they just kind of show up next to him in the comics, but this actually would work if he was trapped in a foot cage underwater, with no animals around him. No Autofire attack? I of course realize being on the ATT for years showcases that nobody will be satisfied with everyone else's builds just based off of the sheer variability in how to make certain people, but I dunno.
Some people are too high in PL, and others are bizarre in other ways. It was artificially inflated to make him PL 12, and you can tell. That's just clumsy. I mean, that's fairly easy to make as a Power. Final Summation: In the end, I can't give it a massive pass. I don't have the problems others do, and I certainly haven't played the game enough to gain any insight into gameplay-issues that may sprout up Daniel Realm has a lot more of those. I was hoping for "2nd Edition, plus some better stuff and old problems fixed", and ended up with "2nd Edition, massively shaken-up in some parts and with a bunch left out, with a few minor fixes here and there, but many old problems still around or made worse".
I kinda still haven't decided. Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Dec 23, am, edited 2 times in total. Model on crazy adventures earning the title "Miss Guided Missle" has a certain coolness to it, but ultimately she's very much a civillian. Druid Doctor Bong Dr. Demonicus Dr. Doom Dr. Dorcas Dr. Faustus Dr. Nemesis II Dr. Nightshade Dr. Strange Dr. Stranger Yet Dr. Sun Dominic Fortune Dr. Doll Mr. Fantastic Mr. Fear Mr. Fish Mr. Hyde Mr. Jip Mister Kline Mr. Sinister Mister X Mr. Generally speaking, if I feel like doing it, I'll get around to it on my own. And building Live Action TV characters is not as much fun as it sounds- it's surprisingly even MORE work than doing builds of Comic Book characters, as TV characters often have more nuance and little wrinkles here and there, while also having less actual information online most super-heroes are easy to look up, by contrast.
Statting up people without any super-powers is just not that interesting. I haven enough DVDs left to watch, thank you. DC is a bit more difficult too many changing levels , but still do-able, as I'm familiar with all the important people. But random "Forgotten Team Book From the '80s"? Stuff that was in small press when I was in diapers? Even friggin' Marvel's own New Universe stuff is ridiculously-hard to find proper comparisons for.
I'd be more interested in Milestone Comics, but again- info is hard to find. And, most importantly And I'd really get zero enjoyment out of doing a project like any of that. If you haven't read it, then to sum it up: Magic sucks as a storytelling convention in mainstream comics because multiple writers on multiple titles with multiple editors leads to everyone basically throwing their hands up and going "Magic can do anything".
There's no rules, no limitations, etc. This leads to many major characters being over-powered, multiple boring stories, and characters like Dr. So I can stat up Dr. But if I read up on some character, and it turns out he's a one-off Wizard who maybe has one or two powers written down, and the rest just says "Magic" or worse: "Varied effects"? And yes, I'm perfectly-well-aware of the fact that Indie labels and that book series with the Magic Detective Guy Harry Dresden not building him; read the above notes and extrapolate from there , Fullmetal Alchemist and Harry Potter or whatever are capable of keeping this shit straight.
But in mainstream Marvel or DC? There's just absolutely no way to ever make it a permanent thing. Even if one super-draconian Editor cracks down and makes universal rules for Magic that somehow don't contradict what's come before , some writer will whine and screw with things, somebody will miss something, and then that Editor will someday leave and the floodgates will open. Magic is too much "carte blanche" for a weak writer to come in and do whatever he wants.
Any other super-power you can name at least has imagined limits, outside of Reality Warping or true Variable and those you don't see in large numbers. So yes, all those one-off Sorcerers can eat a dick. Instead, I made a "Template" for all of them, as they're all basically the same guy anyways. Doctor Strange fought most of them! I've gotten a bunch of requests like that over the years, and I always find it completely dull work, and not worth doing. Not build something from an assumption of what they might be capable of judging from a single panel.
Literally just "Captain America if he was a vampire" or something. It would be the most boring thing ever, and consist of maybe adding one power to a guy's build, or adding one guy's powers to another "Superman With a Green Lantern Ring! And worst of all, it's for characters that have no real effect on comics as a whole- many of these are okay stories, but are one-offs. For many big-name characters, I've done era-specific builds to reflect their varying levels of experience. That's fairly simple and easy. Dreadfully dull stuff. Standard Marvel Monsters aren't interesting.
I already did a Template and any one remotely worth statting with the Mole Man's Monsters and the Deviant Monsters, anyways. Absolutely never fun. I usually have a pretty narrow set of what I'm currently interested in building, and don't like shaking it up. Also, there were times when the thread devolved into people doing nothing but requesting stuff- not fun. I worded it as a joke, but that's how much I disliked getting requests. The years have dulled that sting a bit, so I'm not as grumpy about it as before. But read the above stuff first- if I've never heard of your thing, then I'll probably never get around to it- poor Skavenger requested Strikeforce Morituri , gave me the entire series via online stuff, and I STILL took two years to do it.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Feb 15, am, edited 7 times in total. Welcome to my Jab's own personal Design Diary. I figured I'd throw down some ground rules that I tend to use when I build stuff. Perhaps it'll come in handy for someone's own builds, perhaps not. Individual Ability scores tend to have variance over different aspects of play.
This is it's only influence over most play alongside lifting stuff , but it's a huge one. Helpfully, the 2e Main Book has a giant chart for how much you can lift at different strength levels, which I can easily move over to 3rd Edition. Basically, Strength 1 can lift lbs. Curiously, using the Throwing rules, you can also toss your maximum weight about 30 feet. And as some have noted, the official Strength 4 Batman build can throw a lb. Since I shouldn't actually just paste down actual in-book information for Copywrite reasons , this simplified version will have to do.
The differences between 2e and 3e are immense here- the Human Maximum is now Strength FIVE strength 4 for any real-world person instead of Seven, meaning that you kinda have to "log jam" most humans into the same little range. Joe minus a few guys be Strength 2, but I think it's kind of fitting. Controversial, but I wholeheartedly approve, because drawing out the Strengths amongst the humans just doesn't work in a game leaning towards supers.
So it's nice to see an RPG do this properly for once- it limits the options for non-super combat, but it's a Super-based system, so the hell with it I say. It's a tricky question, especially for regular humans, who typically are NEVER shown in comics as lifting all that much weight. Personally, I lean towards going to the commonly-shown maximum for certain characters, leaving the HUGE strength feats up as "Extra Effort"- Sasquatch tossing a fully-loaded, engines-running airplane down a runway, for example; or Ben Grimm bracing thousands of tons of building. Both of these are WELL beyond their common depictions which rarely go over a hundred tons.
Similarly, you could argue that Captain America only lifts over pounds in certain circumstances, along with Daredevil at lbs. It's just easier and neater that way, though I'm starting to lean towards the opposite these days Marvel used to consistently stat most strong guys as under tons, especially with their Official Handbooks and their Marvel Cards, many of which were set by Mark Gruenwald,.
Now, I've heard plenty of people have a stroke over this statistic, as it does NOT reflect a lot of comics. I've seen Thor stated as a Class 95 guy, when you can see him lifting Asgard or the Midgard Serpent unless that snake is bulimic, it's gonna be heavier than that. Most of the Wrecking Crew were under 50 tons in lifting power, and could still put a hurting on Thor, however strong he was. It's not the cataloguers' fault they failed See, writers have no idea how much stuff weighs. So they'll think Ben Grimm is a Class 80, and even state it, but then have him hold a Subway train up while it's engine's going, or knock over a big ship.
Add to that Power Creep which became a big factor in BattleBoard-style writing , and writers' general tendencies to give characters more and more "Bad Ass" moments more on that later , and you've got an impossible task. So be nice to the catalogued numbers- at ONE point they were accurate and made a bit of sense.
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So this "Class " benchmark may have made sense at one point, but no longer does. Most characters just have "The Strength of Plot"- they can lift whatever they need to do get the plot to where it needs ot be, and they are as strong as they need to be to hurt a certain guy, and no stronger.
I don't take it seriously any more than I do "Class "- if a guy is Peak Human, then he'd better be shown actually lifting upwards of lbs. If not, then too bad. This I toss in as a Strength-Damage Power. Some are irked by using Powers on mere mortals, but I don't really see it that way guys like Cap should have Powers to reflect how good they are, and all-star Track stars would almost HAVE TO have Speed to make up their world records.
Guys like Batroc or The Shredder tend to do more damage than what they can necessarily lift. Also, most Martial Artists have, and use, Power Attack. The reason for this is that the weight you can lift doubles with each rank, making some guys MUCH stronger than they really need to be. As some have noted, a guy with Strength 4 Batman, most people's Daredevils can lift lbs, no problem. This is actually the human limit in the real world!
Animals: Animals are often noticeably stronger than humans once they reach a certain size, but their sheer lifting might actually reaches a peak before their Damage rating does. Nearly any large animal will do this. It's a curiosity of the system, but I think it works out okay. There's also guys who go WAY up in the Strength categories, like the "Class " branch of Powerhouses, who generally go for a notch or two of it. Different levels as I choose to stat them go as follows: STR 6 3, lbs. The domain of tiny animals like rodents, and helpless things that can't lift anything.
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A few of these such as Eagles will have a Strike power unrelated to Strength damage to make up for the lower strength, allowing them to still do some damage. Children are often at this level, as well as tiny things like Goblins. Many year-olds will max out here given their small sizes, however I might give them Power-Lifting to showcase their weak hitting power, but that they can also lift their own body weight.
Most super-heroes should be a bit higher than this after a few years' of training, even those not especialy meant to be gifted physically. These guys typically use Extra Effort when lifting another whole person. A non-martial artist or Blaster hero who isn't a physical God, but can be expected to give a good punch if it comes down to it falls here.
Many smaller, man-sized predatory animals fall here as well. EASILY the most populous section of Strength in comics, especially now that things are consolidated- you don't see guys like Hal Jordan or Tony Stark tossing stuff around, or doing major damage. These people work out lbs. Most "Dexmonkey" martial artists, and muscular street thugs would fall in this category though, if only to reflect their master of chi, lifting movements, and hitting power. DCA puts Batman here, so I throw a lot of Batman-styled guys in this category, like Matt Murdock, who's been shown tossing around lbs.
In comics, this is within the realm of possibility for more lightly-built guys, but even THEN they're huge bruisers. Marvel's Kingpin is actually up here, outside of the human maximum, simply because Captain America can't brawl with Spider-Man on an even keel. It seems odd that the "maximum human ever" ain't that high up, but let's just say that Fisk uses his weight as leverage. Most guys here could do more damage as well. Most really Strong guys go well beyond this. The Wrecking Crew.
Strong but not TOO strong. Anyone who can lift significantly over tons should fall here. Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Dec 23, am, edited 1 time in total. It's a good descriptor of a guy Acrobatics should be noticeably higher than other dudes , but I typically don't go too high with it- it's just more efficient, and within the bounds of reality, to have guys a little lower overall. It's MUCH tougher to judge the variances of agility amongst certain guys than it is to figure out their Lifting capacity or durability, for instance. I mean, is Shang-Chi a Really, there's no "scale" I can think of to properly judge that.
Not very impressive, but descriptive of guys who aren't very jumpy. Strange, Dr. Good soldiers, too.
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Elite martial artists, gymnasts, etc. The most training you could ever possibly have, and you would be about here. A few animalistic types show up here as well. Generally impossible for any human being to reach. Spider-Man is as good as it gets- the dude once bitch-slapped Nightcrawler for even having the GALL to suggest they were equals though they got closer more recently. It's balanced out by the Defense Bonus to make your proper Power Level. Once you figure out Strength, Stamina TENDS to fall into place, as most super-strong guys are also as durable as they are strong Sunspot being a notable exception.
Generally speaking, I'm finding that a lot of human-level guys are a BIT tougher than they are strong, mainly because heroes take a LOT of punches to bring down, but most guys don't do instant KOs with their fists, or lift lbs regularly. STA vs Protection- Where does one end, and the other begin? I can see his point, and I should maybe try to include it more- it's just so obviously inferior to Protection same price , and counter-intuitive that I rarely use it.
Few PC Superheroes, though someone like a master mystic would likely be relatively frail and thus, vulnerable without his Force Fields. This is where most explicitly non-supertough heroes fall, as they're far more vulnerable to attacks than super-powered types. Fairly weak "Drone" Robots would be at this level. Much tougher than normal humans, but not insanely so. Highly resistant to bullet wounds, but will eventually be brought down by them. Many vehicles are in this range.
May be either Class ish Powerhouses, men made of super-hard Stone, or elastic super-heroes. Often have 8 to 12 ranks of Impervious Toughness to make them immune to all but Power Attacking standard heroes. It could practically be a "Dump Stat" to guys not planning on taking Skillmonkey-type traits, but anyone who's supposed to be the team "Smart Guy" is obviously gonna crank up on this. Unlike many RPGs, it doesn't make any difference to the amount of skills you get, making it almost less useful, but when aligned with some REALLY useful Skills in the game, you get an effective character.
It depends on the user, but Mr.